MARCIN Zaborski: I come to you to say: Check it out!
JERZY DUSZYŃSKI: Yes ? Please.
More than a year ago, you took the helm of the PAN, arguing that the Polish Academy of Sciences has much harder to express opinions on issues that trouble society. In an interview with the DGP said Mr. for example, that the academy has to be heard as “loud and meaningful consultative voice.” It worked?
Some failed to do so. First introduced the principle that the most important sessions of the Polish Academy of Sciences, which is on general assemblies, beyond the internal affairs of the academy dealing with topics important from the point of view of society. Discuss them our and not only our most distinguished experts in the field, and then – after discussion – Meeting passes a certain position.
So professors meet, discuss important matters and … well – what happens next? Are the effects of these debates go to the society? Because that’s what you promised.
We do it. I have for you a special issue of the magazine of the Polish Academy of Sciences “Academia”, dedicated to the issues of migration. This is a letter published in two languages - Polish and English – which we promote widely, not only in Poland. This special issue “Academia” is the result of the last General Assembly of the Academy of Sciences, where we discussed migration and we have taken the position of PAS on this issue.
Idea lofty. But easy does not believe that the Poles eagerly took to reading this magazine.
Well, it is no secret that we have trouble with the readership. I do not want to be so over-optimistic. But everyone, even if a little try, you may find out what they think about migration, scientists from the Polish Academy of Sciences. It went to all decision-makers, and on this we especially wanted. True, there was a large resonance. But the important thing is that the scientific community in a truly balanced and meaningful way said what was in Poland say. And had to say that migration has always been and continues to be, that is a huge problem and that we must learn to live with it and it solve.
Here there are different – and often extreme – ideas on how this should be the solution.
I think we should take in the migrants themselves. It is a great opportunity for us, but of course a challenge. I think that Poland should urgently take a significant number of orphans – children, the youngest victims of the Middle East conflict. It is our duty, as well as symbolic occasion to repay for the help that we, Poles granted many times. I would like to recall and remember the beautiful episode when King Gujarati provided assistance and shelter Polish orphans during the Second World War. It is worth mentioning about the government of Iran, which is also in this period took several thousand Polish orphans. It seems to me that now it is our duty to adopt orphans of war with Iraq and Syria.
Now, therefore, is the voice of PAN on migration, whether Polish Academy of Sciences, could become the place the great debate on the dispute with the Constitutional Court? I ask, because running for president of the academy, you said that its task is “To promote the culture of rational discourse and the manner of achieving rational positions.”
Our next general assembly, scheduled for June, and was prepared, already has a certain topic. We will discuss the immunizations and in this particular case we adopt the position of the Polish Academy of Sciences.
certainly is important. Except that today for many particularly important theme is what is happening around the Constitutional Court.
And that is why many scientific committees of Sciences commented on this issue. I think that the social discourse fallen have all the rational arguments on this issue.
And no one will convince?
Personally, I think that is a serious defeat for the ruling camp that he could not resolve the crisis over the Constitutional Court.
but maybe it is worth trying? You said a year ago that the need to rebuild the prestige of the Polish Academy of Sciences and the feeling that it is an organization required in the structure of science in Poland, opinion-forming and active on issues bothering the society. Perhaps this is the moment in which it is worth showing this activity?
I think we should first try to make contact with decision-makers and society, and have a certain resonance when it comes of our positions. After some stagnation is a process in which taking the first steps. Such an attempt was mentioned earlier discussion on migration, which went in a completely different direction than – let’s call it – current official. The whole policy was rather a policy of closure to the issue of reception. He raised all possible threats, not seeing the big advantages associated with these processes. The response to our position was weak, even though it was the position of the most serious body of scholars in the country. We not aroused discussion. I’m talking both about the reaction of the media and politicians.
Before you became president of the Polish Academy of Sciences warned you before scenario in which in the near future academy will be in the second division of science national and enters the inclined plane, which is difficult to get out. This risk is averted?
Never in science such risk is averted, and we have taken very much needed, both for our environment and for the country. For example, recently we established Office for Excellence, which helps scientists in the preparation of grant applications a prestigious European Research Council. The level of education in the EU country is now measured by the number of such grants. This number reflects how many scholars in the country has enough good ideas and scientific achievements that they can stand up to the competition of the European Council of Science and win it. Britain has such winners over 1000. Germany – France 960 – 900.
I’m afraid to ask about Poland …
Well, yes. We have 21. And this is a monstrous problem that shows the huge gap between us and the leading countries, also when it comes to organization. Those countries that are successful have a very strong cell searching talented scientists, motivating them and helping them to apply for the scholarships. Here everyone was so far on his own and had no chance in the face of great people in the West, where professionally helped.
Office for Excellence spammed this gap?
are you sure make Polish scientists will have a better chance to compete. This office operates for only a month, but we were able to secure funding to hire competent people and to organize the course with the best experts from France. It’s all very necessary. A benefit of not only scientists Academy of Sciences, he is an offer for the entire scientific community.
A found you, sir, a cure for the disease of low mobility of our researchers? When we talked about it once, you said that this will lead to increased traffic personnel in the Polish Academy of Sciences. You can today boast of success?
Not yet … But more and more institutes open to the exchange of personnel with universities in the so-called. sabbatical.
Institutes opens, and scientists?
, too. While it is obviously a problem that is not in our tradition of such exchanges, and often the management of the research institution sees no need, thus bearing witness to the lack of understanding mechanisms of practicing modern advanced science. Institutes of the Polish Academy of Sciences graduate students more dynamic. Most of them goes to those research groups which have good funding, good grants and good publications. In a word – a well-functioning leaders swell doctoral students, and malfunctioning simply shrink. Therefore, in my opinion you have to defend the rights PAS institutes for doctoral studies.
Poorly functioning institutions are shrinking, but still ongoing. He pointed this out to your predecessor – prof. Michał Kleiber – when he said that the serious problem of Sciences is its excessively static structure. He pointed out that “there is no means for creating new institutions in the areas of new research challenges, and there are no funds for closing old facilities, certainly good, but not necessary from the point of view of the development of science in the country.”
Here are some things change. Starting to show mechanisms in which poorly rated institutes are growing problems. They are sometimes so reduced funding, that are clearly at risk and will most likely disappear. There are several such institutes. Those who propose good recovery plan, we help. But when we see that the repair program is not good either institute had exhausted its form, will be closed.
Are you ready for the clash with criticism for being close you some institutes PAN?
Yes, I’m ready. Also, because it opens the possibility to create a new institute dedicated to new and emerging science.
The question of whether you manage to open the door wider Polish Academy of Sciences for women? He admitted you that when it comes to their presence in the academy, we have a “shameful tradition.” Also fell announcement that you will be trying very hard to change it.
At this moment begins the process of running for new members of the Polish Academy of Sciences. Not so long ago, so I wrote to all academics, asking for a notice of outstanding women and younger people as potential candidates. I see a problem here, which shows certain patriarchal cultural traditions and mentality, which still stuck. One of our colleagues has prepared an analysis, which shows that more than half of university graduates are women, approx. 50 per cent. doctors are women, and among women professors account for 35 percent.
Meanwhile, Polish Academy of Sciences, we have only 5 percent. women.
Therefore it is very loud and clear, I’m talking about. And together with my colleagues really I try to change it. The leadership of the PAN adopted Although the principle that we do not subscribe to the requests for admission someone to the academy. But I will find one important exception – sign each application, which will address women.
When are you looking for Polish science, where do you see the source of the disease?
The first reason is money. We are at a very low level of funding of science.
What if suddenly there were at it twice as much money – automatically wzniosłaby on a much higher level?
Yes, provided that the extra money przeznaczylibyśmy what we needed most. That is, for download here new, additional, outstanding people – and the West and the East.
So, themselves can not do in podźwignięciu Polish science to the next level?
This is all over the world. The number of talented people is still limited. Why, for example, Chopin competitions are held only once every five years, rather than every year? I assure you that every year there would appear to contest the new Krystian Zimerman, Rafał Blechacz, Cho Seong-jin whether the new Martha Argerich. Also in science we have a limited number of talented people. The chance that we will get to them is greater when their research institutions will attract people from all over the world, and not when we limit ourselves only to such. Mazovia. The low level of internationalization is our big problem.
Is it easy to be in Poland, talented, budding young scientist?
Indeed, the chance to start an independent career in science is a young man in our problem. In many areas a truly creative period is the time between 35 and 45 years of age. This is a time of great breakthroughs, innovation, progress. Throughout the world it is the young people drive the learning.
A with us?
We the people extremely difficult to break through to independence. Although of course we make some efforts, organizing competitions for grants just for young scientists. But this is not enough. Because what that such a person would get some money when I must continue to work in groups of one or another professor.
It happens that at the stage of the struggle for habilitation of young scientists become hostages professors. Dr. Kamil Kulesza talked about recently in the DGP, arguing that we have a system of learning that the degenerated and degenerates our scientific staff. As he said – “as if everyone knows, but no one with that does nothing, it is easier, more convenient, and besides, as I have to take place in the system, they are Frukta.”
I think it is too harsh a word, but youth has its rights. However, the problem is. For example, such that individual institutions are not always able to organize a workshop for young scientists, because, for example, do not have the money to buy very expensive equipment needed for their work. Start to independence, the assembly workshop, a team of PhD students takes with us a long time, and the time is here particularly important.
limping funding often appears in conversations about the condition of Polish science. Many also says that further reforms spoiled everything. Definitely less frequently professors looking for problems in their ranks. Did someone say loudly that the rectors and deans are not always those who can well manage people and financial institutions? It happens that the position falls to someone who has the appropriate seniority in the department, or someone who is a “must”, because that is the balance of power at the university …
I do not know whether the rectors so much depends. Usually, they are not so close to the research techniques, and because they are chosen on the basis of a game interests of their university environment, do not change too much of the environment in their favor. Though maybe they should. But the Polish Academy of Sciences is different than in higher education. Directors choose in open competitions, so they are not hostage in their institutes.
Can an important hint for higher education?
Maybe …
it would be certainly a big revolution. The question is whether this can be another change, which he says science minister. Jaroslaw Gowin wants to rebuild the model of the Polish economy and assumes transition from imitation to innovation economy. Where lies the key to this change?
All the experts affirm that the base is basic science at a high level. If you do not wykształcimy people with original ideas and research topics, we will not be innovative. There is absolutely no possibility of overcoming this stage. First you have to build a huge potential for substantive science, and then there are fruits in the form of innovative products.
But here there is some trouble. In recent times, thanks to EU funds have invested a lot in creating a new, impressive laboratories and research centers. Except that – as he says now minister Gowin – those laboratories shine now empty, because not provided measures not only to lead their research, but also for their maintenance. There are really too many to keep them all?
Yes, although in each of these investments slumber some potential. To build them they handed over the money, about which universities, research institutions and institutes of Sciences had never dreamed of. As a result, they managed to create a completely new generation of infrastructure. But usually in the world you go for the second step – it’s about filling the space with new, dynamic employees who conduct research. But this would require a special program of the European Union, which would be the successor conducted construction. Unfortunately, such a program ran out and not continue this work.
You have to be so in the new university campuses to open multiplexes to keep the new buildings?
Do not be so bad. Universities wait several years because of EU rules require, then bring to the laboratories of their students. It will definitely change the comfort of studying, but not improve our productivity. Too bad they do not make full use of this potential.
What can I ask you for a year, when he will reappear in your office to say: Checks?
Please inquire about all the issues raised in this interview! I hope that all issues will be discussed noticeable progress. Polish Academy of Sciences does not work as electronic media instantly, almost instant. Our carefully considered and discussed decisions are part of the process, which – I believe – will make the PAN will be in two or three years even more important element of the science system in Poland and the recognized center of opinion leaders.
Prof. Jerzy Duszyński – biochemist, in 2008-2009, Deputy Minister of Science, since 2015. President of the Academy of Sciences. Professor at the Institute of Experimental Biology. Nencki Polish Academy of Sciences
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